WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.160 Hi, and welcome back to Gamereactor's coverage of Nordic Game. 00:04.160 --> 00:06.720 We're going right into it with another exciting interview, 00:06.720 --> 00:09.000 and I'm going to let you introduce yourself. 00:09.000 --> 00:11.800 Thank you. Hello, everybody. My name is Fawzi Mesmar. 00:11.800 --> 00:14.080 I am a game designer and creative director. 00:14.080 --> 00:17.400 I've been working in the games industry for around 22 years at this point. 00:17.400 --> 00:19.000 I'm originally from Jordan. 00:19.000 --> 00:21.040 I started off there as an independent developer, 00:21.040 --> 00:25.520 and from there, my career has taken me a bit all over the world, actually, 00:25.520 --> 00:28.640 from the Middle East to New Zealand to Japan to Europe. 00:28.640 --> 00:31.040 I've done a little bit of everything, 00:31.040 --> 00:36.280 from indie development to handheld to smartphones to AAA games. 00:36.280 --> 00:40.400 I am currently a creative director at Ubisoft, 00:40.400 --> 00:45.760 where I'm working on Beyond Good & Evil 2 with the guys in Montpellier. 00:45.760 --> 00:48.400 In addition to my day job, 00:48.400 --> 00:55.840 I'm also very passionate and active in the academic part of video games, 00:55.880 --> 01:01.280 so I lecture and teach in conferences and universities around the world on game design. 01:01.280 --> 01:04.920 I've written two books, one of them called Al-Khallab in Art of Game Design, 01:04.920 --> 01:07.760 which is the first book to be written about the topic in Arabic, 01:07.760 --> 01:12.640 and my recent book, Demystifying Creativity and Originality in Game Development, 01:12.640 --> 01:15.200 was published last Christmas by CRC Presh, 01:15.200 --> 01:20.400 in which I talk about creativity and originality and where those ideas come from, 01:20.400 --> 01:24.600 and from which my talk here at Nordic was all about. 01:24.600 --> 01:28.520 Yeah, and I just finished talking with your friend Rami about a podcast together, 01:28.520 --> 01:33.560 The Habibis, where you talk about Arabic culture and games from the region, 01:33.560 --> 01:36.600 and we were talking about the first Assassin's Creed game, 01:36.600 --> 01:41.840 with its very accurate representation of the historical Middle East, 01:41.840 --> 01:45.040 and how it was kind of a groundbreaking game 01:45.040 --> 01:50.080 in terms of how Muslims and Arabs were portrayed in gaming. 01:50.080 --> 01:54.400 How do you view the influence of the first Assassin's Creed 01:54.400 --> 02:00.520 and how Arabs are portrayed in games since, like, from the early series, 02:00.520 --> 02:06.040 where they were often, you know, very negatively portrayed in shooter games and such? 02:06.040 --> 02:08.960 Very cool, man. So, like, I'm happy that you spoke with Rami. 02:08.960 --> 02:14.600 Rami and I and our friend Osama Dorias, we started recording ourselves during the pandemic, 02:14.600 --> 02:17.680 you know, and releasing our musings to the public, 02:17.680 --> 02:19.920 and then a lot of people started listening to them. 02:19.920 --> 02:22.120 We were mostly talking about game development, 02:22.120 --> 02:25.800 but, you know, inevitably, we talk about who we are as people, 02:25.800 --> 02:30.320 and mostly food, you know, and then a lot of people ended up listening, 02:30.320 --> 02:33.280 and, you know, and I think there's a big part of what we did 02:33.280 --> 02:35.720 and how that ended up resonating with a lot of people is that, like, 02:35.720 --> 02:41.320 we are game developers and we made our work all from Arab origin or ethnicity, 02:41.320 --> 02:44.320 and we made our work visible to people, 02:44.320 --> 02:46.160 and that, like, kind of helped them identify, like, 02:46.160 --> 02:52.600 hey, maybe, you know, if I'm from the Middle East, I can do stuff like these guys, you know? 02:52.600 --> 02:58.520 So, there's a big part of representation is, like, for people seeing themselves 02:58.520 --> 03:02.320 in the work of fiction, regardless, or work of others, 03:02.320 --> 03:05.160 or the work of whatever creative product is out there, 03:05.160 --> 03:08.520 for you to feel inspired to go, like, well, yeah, if they can do it, I can, 03:08.520 --> 03:10.120 so I want to do it as well. 03:10.120 --> 03:14.400 And, you know, I've had a long inspiration history with Ubisoft, 03:14.400 --> 03:15.840 even before I worked with a company, 03:15.840 --> 03:18.840 because, like, the first Assassin's Creed came out a long time ago, 03:18.840 --> 03:21.400 when I was still living in the Middle East, 03:21.400 --> 03:22.920 and I remember, like, thinking to myself, like, 03:22.920 --> 03:25.600 this is a dude on a horse going to Damascus, you know? 03:25.600 --> 03:28.320 I've never seen that in a large-scale video game before. 03:28.320 --> 03:30.440 That's really cool, you know? 03:30.440 --> 03:34.360 It was really cool for me to see my culture represented 03:34.360 --> 03:39.160 in a massively popular work of fiction, you know? 03:39.160 --> 03:43.600 And, yeah, like, and I remember, like, I had that experience again 03:43.640 --> 03:46.560 when we released Assassin's Creed Mirage a few years ago, 03:46.560 --> 03:49.080 and I played the entire game from start to finish in Arabic. 03:49.080 --> 03:51.840 I was like, I don't think I've ever had that experience before 03:51.840 --> 03:53.880 on a large-scale AAA project. 03:53.880 --> 03:59.080 So, you should never underestimate how much something like this 03:59.080 --> 04:01.640 could inspire people, you know, generations. 04:01.640 --> 04:04.040 I still remember that moment, even though it happened 04:04.040 --> 04:05.680 now close to 20 years ago, you know? 04:05.680 --> 04:11.000 So, yeah, it's a remarkable moment, and it resonates a lot, 04:11.000 --> 04:14.960 I'm sure, not just with me, but with a lot of people, too. 04:14.960 --> 04:20.120 Yeah, and working out of Jordan when you were starting out, 04:20.120 --> 04:22.920 what were some of the challenges of developing games 04:22.920 --> 04:25.760 in countries or regions that are not, 04:25.760 --> 04:30.560 that doesn't really have a strong video game scene? 04:30.560 --> 04:32.880 Yeah, so, like, you know, I think there's, like, 04:32.880 --> 04:34.960 you know, logistical problems, and there's also, like, 04:34.960 --> 04:37.520 even psychological problems to some extent. 04:37.520 --> 04:40.160 Like, when I first started out, I've never really met 04:40.200 --> 04:42.320 another game developer before, you know? 04:42.320 --> 04:44.160 I didn't know what, for me, like, they were wizards. 04:44.160 --> 04:46.960 They were living somewhere elsewhere, 04:46.960 --> 04:50.240 and then, like, they create magic on discs and cartridges 04:50.240 --> 04:51.520 and send it our way. 04:51.520 --> 04:53.600 And I was like, I've never met these people. 04:53.600 --> 04:55.440 I don't know what they're like. 04:55.440 --> 04:57.280 So, whenever I was trying to do that, I was like, 04:57.280 --> 04:58.960 can I even do this, you know? 04:58.960 --> 05:00.920 Is this something that is within my capabilities? 05:00.920 --> 05:02.640 Because I was filled with self-doubt. 05:02.640 --> 05:05.320 And because I did not have access to be able to talk 05:05.320 --> 05:07.600 to some of these people or get access to their knowledge 05:07.600 --> 05:11.880 or experience, I had to learn the old-fashioned way, 05:11.880 --> 05:15.000 you know, by doing a lot of trial and error and mistakes 05:15.000 --> 05:18.480 and getting my, whatever I could get my hands on 05:18.480 --> 05:22.280 from resources and material and other languages 05:22.280 --> 05:26.000 so that I can, you know, try to at least soothe myself 05:26.000 --> 05:28.600 that maybe I don't suck that badly, you know? 05:28.600 --> 05:31.760 Or maybe I'm on the right way and somehow. 05:31.760 --> 05:34.520 And logistically, like, even, like, back then, 05:34.520 --> 05:36.000 it's a lot better now, but back then, 05:36.040 --> 05:38.160 even getting a dev kit to the Middle East was a problem. 05:38.160 --> 05:40.400 You know, like, you know, we'd call up people 05:40.400 --> 05:42.200 and they're like, what, you guys play games there, 05:42.200 --> 05:43.120 let alone make them? 05:43.120 --> 05:45.600 Like, how are you gonna send you this dev kit, you know? 05:46.880 --> 05:49.560 There wasn't that much support in terms of, like, 05:49.560 --> 05:51.720 understanding what is game development 05:51.720 --> 05:54.440 that can be actually a legitimate career or industry. 05:54.440 --> 05:58.520 And for companies from overseas to understand that, 05:58.520 --> 06:00.040 yeah, there are people in the Middle East 06:00.040 --> 06:02.320 that can make video games, you know? 06:02.320 --> 06:04.080 So, it was coming from both ways, 06:04.120 --> 06:07.360 and it was a bit of a struggle. 06:07.360 --> 06:09.640 But, you know, like, as we end up making games, 06:09.640 --> 06:11.080 it's kind of like, yeah, but we're living the dream. 06:11.080 --> 06:13.120 Like, these things are working, so we can figure it out. 06:13.120 --> 06:15.920 So, inevitably, like, the market grew 06:15.920 --> 06:19.120 and now we're witnessing a lot of game developers 06:19.120 --> 06:21.280 in the Middle East doing some really cool stuff, 06:21.280 --> 06:22.520 and I think this is just the beginning. 06:22.520 --> 06:24.200 We're about to see so much more cool stuff 06:24.200 --> 06:25.560 to come out from these guys. 06:26.920 --> 06:28.560 Yeah, and you mentioned, 06:28.560 --> 06:30.120 we talked about your starting career, 06:30.120 --> 06:33.320 you're working solo with your own skills 06:33.320 --> 06:35.760 and your own intuition, and now you have progressed. 06:35.760 --> 06:38.440 You are working on huge projects 06:38.440 --> 06:39.520 like Beyond Good and Evil. 06:39.520 --> 06:40.800 You have a huge staff. 06:40.800 --> 06:43.720 And I was wondering about the creativity part, 06:44.720 --> 06:47.120 which you also had a talk about. 06:47.120 --> 06:51.680 How does creativity work when you have such a huge team 06:51.680 --> 06:53.080 who each have their inputs 06:53.080 --> 06:55.680 and have to go through different layers of decisions 06:55.680 --> 06:56.840 and so on? 06:56.840 --> 06:58.520 How does that affect creativity 06:58.520 --> 07:00.960 versus working by yourself? 07:01.960 --> 07:04.040 So, it's one of the things I touched on, actually, 07:04.040 --> 07:07.040 in my talk just now, that creativity stands on two legs. 07:07.040 --> 07:09.080 There's the context of originality, 07:09.080 --> 07:11.440 which is creating unprecedented 07:11.440 --> 07:13.240 or statistically unlikely ideas, 07:13.240 --> 07:15.760 creating really fresh and innovative ideas, 07:15.760 --> 07:19.240 but there's also the leg of value. 07:19.240 --> 07:21.240 So, creativity comes from the creating ideas 07:21.240 --> 07:22.520 are both original and value, 07:22.520 --> 07:25.760 and value is determined from the context in which we create. 07:25.760 --> 07:28.840 So, if I was to come up with an idea, for example, 07:28.840 --> 07:30.400 that is waterproof teabags, 07:30.480 --> 07:31.560 that might be original, 07:31.560 --> 07:33.560 but within the context of usefulness, 07:33.560 --> 07:35.600 it kind of has no value, right? 07:35.600 --> 07:38.200 Whereas if I'm artistically challenging 07:38.200 --> 07:39.960 what the teabag even is, 07:39.960 --> 07:42.280 then that idea might have some value, right? 07:42.280 --> 07:43.920 So, the context is essential 07:43.920 --> 07:46.960 for us to be able to determine the value of the idea 07:46.960 --> 07:49.440 and how we can be original within that context. 07:50.640 --> 07:53.640 That same applies to small-scale or large-scale projects. 07:53.640 --> 07:55.880 Wherever you're creating as an individual, 07:55.880 --> 07:56.960 we need to be able, 07:56.960 --> 07:58.520 you need to be able to understand 07:58.520 --> 08:00.400 on which context you're creating, right? 08:00.400 --> 08:03.040 So, even if you're an individual developer on your own, 08:03.040 --> 08:05.440 well, the creativity seems to be boundless, 08:05.440 --> 08:07.560 there's only eight hours a day, 08:07.560 --> 08:09.840 and there's only so much that one person can do, 08:09.840 --> 08:12.560 and there's only so much that the tech can allow you to do. 08:12.560 --> 08:15.000 So, there's all these constraints around you anyway 08:15.000 --> 08:17.720 that will limit your creative output, 08:17.720 --> 08:19.400 but what I'm actually advocating for, 08:19.400 --> 08:21.120 I would say, empower it. 08:21.120 --> 08:22.600 So, in our large-scale projects, 08:22.600 --> 08:24.640 there are the constraints in which, 08:24.640 --> 08:26.160 where you are in the team, 08:26.160 --> 08:27.320 your fields of expertise, 08:27.320 --> 08:32.320 and how your own contribution will impact the big picture. 08:32.520 --> 08:35.640 And within that context, you can be very creative, you know? 08:35.640 --> 08:38.000 And the idea is that, for a large-scale project, 08:38.000 --> 08:39.000 it's for you when you're able 08:39.000 --> 08:40.960 to really define the constraints, 08:40.960 --> 08:42.680 in a way, and the big picture, 08:42.680 --> 08:44.800 in a way that the team can understand, 08:44.800 --> 08:47.480 then it becomes the sum of the creative output 08:47.480 --> 08:49.240 of every single person in the team. 08:52.320 --> 08:54.160 If you're doing a creative project, 08:54.160 --> 08:55.920 like working on your own video game, 08:55.920 --> 08:57.480 maybe writing a book or something, 08:57.480 --> 09:00.480 and you find you get stuck in the same path all the time, 09:00.480 --> 09:01.960 and you can't really seem to come up 09:01.960 --> 09:03.680 with any ideas that sticks, 09:03.680 --> 09:06.040 do you have any tips on that sort of situation? 09:06.040 --> 09:07.480 100%. 09:07.480 --> 09:10.680 So, I'm a big fan of talking about my ideas. 09:10.680 --> 09:12.040 So, when I'm thinking about something, 09:12.040 --> 09:15.720 the best way to validate or to get input 09:15.720 --> 09:17.160 is to get feedback. 09:17.160 --> 09:18.920 So, I'll give you the book as an example. 09:18.920 --> 09:21.200 When I first thought of the idea of writing this book, 09:21.200 --> 09:22.840 I was like, maybe I should show it 09:22.840 --> 09:24.680 to a lot of these people that I trust, 09:24.680 --> 09:26.240 or people that I value their opinion. 09:26.240 --> 09:28.120 I showed it to fellow professors, 09:28.120 --> 09:29.720 other game design directors. 09:29.720 --> 09:32.720 I'm thinking about writing this game design idea, 09:32.720 --> 09:34.840 or this book about creativity. 09:34.840 --> 09:36.800 Some people told me you should read these books. 09:36.800 --> 09:39.000 Some people told me, ah, but I've seen it in this, 09:39.000 --> 09:40.760 and you should avoid doing it like this. 09:40.760 --> 09:41.960 Some people were like, oh, that's great. 09:41.960 --> 09:43.080 I would love to hear your thoughts. 09:43.080 --> 09:45.080 So, I got all kinds of input, 09:45.080 --> 09:46.440 and I was like, okay, that sounds good. 09:46.440 --> 09:48.560 How can I pick the feedback 09:48.560 --> 09:51.000 that really addresses what I'm working on? 09:51.000 --> 09:53.280 And then, before I started even writing, 09:53.280 --> 09:54.640 for like the past four years, 09:54.640 --> 09:56.440 I've been developing my ideas, 09:56.440 --> 09:58.200 and putting them into talks. 09:58.200 --> 10:00.000 So, I can present them to people, 10:00.000 --> 10:03.000 and then showing it to my peers in the industry, 10:03.000 --> 10:04.920 whether professionals or academics, 10:04.920 --> 10:06.680 and then garner their feedback. 10:06.680 --> 10:08.240 And then, I started to see that there were questions 10:08.240 --> 10:09.800 that I was getting almost every time. 10:09.800 --> 10:12.080 I was like, okay, then I probably should add that 10:12.080 --> 10:14.480 to my book, and make sure that it's answered. 10:14.480 --> 10:16.560 And I told it enough to the point that now I know 10:16.560 --> 10:18.600 that whatever questions that come my way, 10:18.600 --> 10:21.040 I've, or most of them at least, 10:21.040 --> 10:23.280 I've had it part of my research, 10:23.280 --> 10:25.760 or I've had it part of the Q&A that I've discussed. 10:25.760 --> 10:27.280 So, generally, whenever like, 10:28.960 --> 10:31.760 the way I do it, whenever I'm in a creative block, 10:31.760 --> 10:33.840 let's say, it means that maybe I'm not looking 10:33.840 --> 10:36.600 at the entire problem, or maybe I'm not looking 10:36.600 --> 10:38.440 at the problem from the right angle. 10:38.440 --> 10:39.960 And I do one of two things. 10:39.960 --> 10:43.240 I either talk to people I respect. 10:43.240 --> 10:44.800 A friend of mine once says, 10:44.800 --> 10:46.920 critique is the highest form of flattery. 10:46.920 --> 10:48.200 And I love that saying. 10:48.200 --> 10:50.320 So, I love to share my ideas with people 10:50.320 --> 10:53.400 so that they can critique it, and thus make it better. 10:53.400 --> 10:56.360 And the other thing that I do is I move myself completely 10:56.360 --> 10:57.240 from the problem. 10:57.240 --> 10:59.360 I just leave it at the back of my head. 10:59.360 --> 11:01.400 And then I just go and do something else. 11:01.400 --> 11:04.080 You know, like take a walk, or pick up a hobby, 11:04.080 --> 11:06.880 or do graffiti, or, you know, whatever it is 11:06.880 --> 11:08.360 that I do something new. 11:08.360 --> 11:11.360 Because the way creativity works is that two things 11:11.360 --> 11:15.600 that seemingly are unconnected, they connect suddenly. 11:15.600 --> 11:17.160 And it usually happens when the idea's 11:17.160 --> 11:18.240 on the back of your mind, 11:18.240 --> 11:20.440 and you're taking input from the world, 11:20.440 --> 11:22.800 and then something clicks, you know? 11:22.800 --> 11:25.240 Archimedes, when he had this Eureka moment, 11:25.240 --> 11:26.760 he wasn't doing physics. 11:26.760 --> 11:28.360 You know, he was taking a bath. 11:28.360 --> 11:30.840 And he observed the water, and he was like, 11:30.840 --> 11:32.000 I got it, you know? 11:32.000 --> 11:33.320 He observed his surroundings. 11:33.320 --> 11:35.120 He did something that's completely out of what he's doing, 11:35.120 --> 11:37.040 and that's part of his creative output. 11:37.040 --> 11:39.080 So, usually, that will come either 11:39.080 --> 11:40.920 from me not doing something, 11:40.920 --> 11:43.400 or by talking about it with someone else, 11:43.400 --> 11:46.600 my team, my peers, et cetera. 11:48.600 --> 11:49.800 How are we on time? 11:49.800 --> 11:50.800 One question? 11:50.800 --> 11:51.640 Yeah. 11:53.760 --> 11:57.200 During your writing of your book, 11:57.200 --> 11:59.040 what are something about creativity, 12:00.600 --> 12:02.480 by looking at the scientific angle, 12:02.480 --> 12:04.600 talking with other people, case studies, 12:04.600 --> 12:06.600 academia, reading articles, 12:06.600 --> 12:08.320 what are something that surprised you 12:08.320 --> 12:10.080 in the way creativity works? 12:12.040 --> 12:12.920 Ah, there's so much. 12:12.920 --> 12:14.400 Because it's, for a lot of people, 12:14.400 --> 12:17.880 it seems to be like a myth, to some extent. 12:18.520 --> 12:19.760 A big thing that surprised me, 12:19.760 --> 12:23.120 that I can share, also shared a bit in my talk today, 12:23.120 --> 12:27.440 is that some people exhibit the ability 12:27.440 --> 12:29.480 to be more creative than others. 12:29.480 --> 12:31.200 By that means is that they're capable 12:31.200 --> 12:33.120 of generating more original ideas 12:33.120 --> 12:36.200 that are of value at a higher rate than other people. 12:36.200 --> 12:38.360 And some of the research that I read around the topic 12:38.360 --> 12:40.560 seems to see that there is a connection 12:40.560 --> 12:44.360 between creative output and attention deficiency, 12:44.360 --> 12:45.640 which I found to be funny. 12:46.640 --> 12:48.720 But also resonates. 12:48.720 --> 12:50.920 Seems like creative people tend to be the dreamy types 12:50.920 --> 12:51.960 or something like this. 12:51.960 --> 12:55.520 And there's research that saw that there's a correlation 12:55.520 --> 12:59.800 between attention deficiency, so low-grade ADHD, 12:59.800 --> 13:02.200 low-grade autism, and creative output, 13:02.200 --> 13:04.680 up until a point in impairment in which it goes against you. 13:04.680 --> 13:07.200 So like patients with high schizophrenia, for example, 13:07.200 --> 13:09.480 showed no signs of creative output. 13:09.480 --> 13:11.080 So that means that there are some people 13:11.080 --> 13:16.080 that intuitively, due to traits that they have, 13:19.760 --> 13:22.440 personality or even who they are as people, 13:22.440 --> 13:27.360 it aids them into being able to connect things 13:27.360 --> 13:30.800 that are completely unrelated at a very high pace. 13:30.800 --> 13:33.960 And I found that fascinating to dig deeper into and study. 13:35.720 --> 13:37.960 Yeah, thanks for sharing your insights 13:37.960 --> 13:40.600 and enjoy the rest of the conference. 13:41.120 --> 13:41.960 Thank you so much for having me. 13:41.960 --> 13:42.800 I appreciate that.